AN OPEN LETTER ABOUT OPEN EMBRACE posted by Sam and Bethany Torode on openembrace.com. I have deep respect for any author willing to be honest and upfront and say publically “we’ve changed our minds.” Now, their mischaracterization of Augustine and Calvin… ;o)
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whoa!…..whoa!!!! I find this fascinting, as someone who has “sorta” done NFP and really struggled with the legalism I found in the class we took. I struggled with certain legalistic aspects more than my husband, actually–on a theological level. And as for the mischaracterizations–those really disappoint.
excuse me, i meant fascinating. :)
Can you explain how their statement about Augustine and Calvin is a mischaracterization?
I haven’t read their book. . . but I do remember when it came out and reading the premise and seeing their ages and thinking. . . well. . . time and maturity will tell. . .
I think it is very mature to say, “Well, maybe we didn’t understand things as fully as we thought we did. . .”
Augustine had some off views on sex, so I am not going to speak for him at the moment, but I don’t think Calvin have affirmed total depravity = the self is fundamentally evil. We are created in the image of God, God created sex, etc.
I’ve always wanted to read this book. Never did, but I’m glad for the update. It’s good to see people willing to honestly deal with these kinds of issues. Thanks for linking.
ji packer writes in the preface to the book something along the lines of them being youthfully idealistic.
i was glad the book was written, but it didnt give me everything i had hoped for…
eric and i often wonder what the torodes are up to! thanks for the link.
Kristen, that’s interesting to me because my priest, some friends, a couple of pastor acquaintances who ascribe to TULIP, and everyone I know IRL from a Reformed background (all my inlaws, one of my two stepfamilies) seem to understand total depravity exactly that way. Now I’m really confused! I thought total depravity taught that we were fundamentally in the image of God before the Fall, but are now fundamentally sinful (and sin=evil, right?)?
I haven’t wanted to read Augustine since I read his writings about his mother back in a Classics course and was so disturbed I wanted to cry :(
Brianna, in Calvin and Reformed theology generally, the imago Dei is defaced, not obliterated; the creation is good, and to be redeemed.
Augustine on the other hand has a major Neoplatonist hangover, and I say good riddance to a lot of his more gnostic sentiments about the body. This was caused, in large part, by misunderstanding the word “sarx” (= “flesh”) in Paul’s letters. In other words, it is part of the loss of the Jewish background which is being rapidly recovered in our own day.
The misunderstandings of Reformed theology swirling out there, and the absurd celebrity that people like the Torodes achieve whenever they meddle with the topic indicates that the world needs a good book on marital love and children from a covenantal and Reformed perspective. I can’t think of anything that fits the bill. Doug Wilson is wishy washy on contraception. Mary Pride (is she Reformed?) just scares people with her “I’m a female Rushdoony” writing style. Someone needs to take the time and do it right. (That probably involves 25-30 years of marriage first. For my own part, I wouldn’t bother listening to anyone who hadn’t first succesfully taught his own children the Biblical view of the matter.)
Thanks Matt. Apparently, and tragically, there are more than a few Reformed churches that are not getting that point across. A number of my family members have ditched their faith because of what happens when people live the implications of the interpretation I described above.
“Augustine has a major Neoplatonist hangover”
Love it.
I wonder whether Mary Pride is of the Reformed persuasion at this point? I kinda don’t think she was (or only was beginning to be) when she wrote her Way Home books. . .